Axel Klapka 访谈

编者按：2011年9月27日风景园林新青年志愿者前往柏林K1事务所采访了德意志风景园林师联合会柏林及勃兰登堡州主席Axel Klapka先生。Klapka先生在访谈中向风景园林新青年志愿者介绍了德意志风景园林师联合会的组织情况，德国风景园林师执业和风景园林专业教育情况，以及K1事务所的设计理念等内容，并借风景园林新青年这个平台向中国的青年风景园林师送上寄语。2013年是德意志风景园林师联合会的100周年华诞，风景园林新青年谨以此篇访谈的发表向德意志风景园林师联合会的百年诞辰表示热烈祝贺和由衷的敬意。

感谢新青年志愿者王晞月将访谈录音整理成文。

风景园林新青年：BDLA（德国风景园林师协会，以下简称“BDLA”）是一个什么样的组织可以给我们介绍一下它的基本情况吗？

Axel Klapka：BDLA是一个没有经费资助的机构。相当于一种志愿服务性工作。我们把许多志同道合的风景园林设计师联合起来组织一些活动。我们也有德国的总部，总部的工作水平相对来说更加专业。如果你想成为BDLA的一员，成员资格是有限制的，你需要支付一些钱，但是你去做一名志愿者。并且不是每个在BDLA中工作的人都是其中的成员。

BDLA是德国风景园林学的唯一的组织。在柏林和勃兰登堡州我们有一百多个成员，这并不是很多。我们也并没有非常严格的标准和审查。但是在BDLA中，我们试图与各个事务所保持密切的联系，我们举办展览或者组织其他活动，为其它事务所提供福利。在BDLA我们形成一种团体，每四个星期碰面一次。我们一般会开两个或者三个小时的会然后出去游玩，喝啤酒。交换我们在对工作的看法和立场。同时，我们也会承办2020柏林IBA国际建筑展等工作，以及在城市规划的政策上有所投入。毕竟有些事情你作为一个普通的风景园林师是做不到的，这时我们需要这些相关的人员。所以说它并不是那种的正式的、系统化的组织方式，而是自由灵活的交流性的组织模式。并不像建筑师协会，是一个为建筑师，风景园林师，城市规划师的官方的组织。

风景园林新青年：在德国怎样才能拥有“风景园林师”的称谓呢？

Axel Klapka：如果你想要得到“建筑师”或者“风景园林师”或者无论在其中的哪个领域的正规的头衔，你需要先成为德国建筑师协会(以下简称“协会”)的一个成员。一年的会员费大约在360欧元左右。同时，你需要至少三年的学习经历，也就是说本科学历或者更高。并且需要在事务所做至少两年的实习生，才可以申请成为协会的成员，才有机会参与竞赛。否则的话，你并没有资格参与任何竞赛。在你按规定完成学习和实习之后，他们会给你一张表格你需要向他们展示你的一些工作经验和草图图纸等等。并且更重要的是实际建设的项目经历。像一个我的雇员想要成为建筑师协会的成员之一，需要我签署他在两年实习和实践中所做的工作。

在建筑师协会中工作没有固定的规则和框架，在BDLA中也没有，更多的是一种自我管理。越是专业的人员，在协会中越是有组织有秩序的，并且需要更加注重自己的工作质量。但是，其实并没有必要一定成为协会的成员。像我是事务所中第一个建筑师协会的会员，但是我并非在协会工作，而是和我的合伙人一起在事务所中工作。但是事务所里只有我可以签署参加竞赛的文件，因为别的人不是允许签字的，而他们可以参加所有竞赛的工作并且做得很好。所以说建筑师协会并没有针对事务所的规则和工作标准。他们只是需要检验你拥有良好的教育背景，有你的大学本科学习经历，有你的实习工作经历。而我作为协会的成员需要签署关于实习工作经历的部分而并不是所有的部分。如果他们并没有按要求参加实习实践工作，我不能承认你有资格成为建筑师协会成员的一份子。

当然你在大学毕业之后，你同样可以创立你的事务所，但是不允许将“建筑师”的名号以任何形式放在你的事务所中。你可以说“绿地规划设计”或其他。但是，你不是允许说你是一个“风景园林师”或者我的事务所是“风景园林设计事务所”。你只能从建筑师协会那里得到这个头衔。这是一种名誉保护的方式，至少是专业工作的正常运转和教育程度的一种保证，以便让专业人员进行正常的工作，参加竞赛或者在事务所里工作。

风景园林新青年：我知道我们都会在工作用到DIN标准，您怎么看待风景园林中的DIN标准？

Axel Klapka：我的一些项目灵感来源于我对DIN标准的兴趣。现在风景园林师也在使用DIN标准。标准其实来自于并发展于十分具体的事情，像混凝土，这是我很感兴趣的方面，并且我们针对它开展了很多研究。但是，毕竟我们不是科学家，所以我们和一些工业方面的专业人员合作，他们有相关的专业知识，做过一些机场或停车场地面，工业厂房地板的工程等等。他们有相关的规则，有行业的DIN标准，但是并没有风景园林设计至少是风景园林建设的标准。这是我们的工作中存在的问题。我们只有更大范围和领域的标准，而我们需要去阅读它，需要去理解它，并且将其中最重要的部分提炼并映射到我们的作品中去。

同时，我在做相关的技术工作的时候我是希望有这样的标准存在的。我喜欢这个标准因为他们给我们提供合理的工作方式。至少对于甲方来说我们做的是正确的事情，至少我们做的道路能安全有效的发挥作用，不会无故浪费资金，甲方不会因为工程上损毁严重而提出诉讼并撤回资金。

我对于标准的要求很严格，许多人认为对于标准的要求与他们作品的创造性背道而驰，我不这么认为。因为无论如何创造性是先于标准存在的。当我们决定使用这些标准的时候，它本身已经是我们的构想中的一部分。而在标准中，技术的创造性同样以另一种方式呈现。你至少需要对输出的作品负责任，像我对于我们事务所的项目一样。如果我希望我们的项目工程是安全可靠的，我会带上建设工程师，和他们一起再次确认工程质量。

当然，在开始建造之前是我们的工作，技术施工图是非常必要的。并不是有一个好的想法然后就可以直接等着它建成。在德国所有我的员工都保持着严格绘制施工图的习惯。

风景园林新青年：中国和德国有着截然不同的教育模式和系统，在德国BDLA是否参与有关专业教育体系完善的工作？

Axel Klapka：并不完全是这样，我们在BDLA中所做的，主要是在提供交流工作的平台。譬如，把相关的人员组织起来就一些主题展开讨论，其中一个主题就是教育和大学。这样他们每年可以有两到三次会面的机会。或者他们也会就当前的特别专题或者感兴趣的话题会面讨论。所以在改变风景园林和风景规划教育体系方面，我们是以这样的方式和平台介入的。

我们在学校柏林这里站在整个德国的视角下寻找最合适的教育体系规划，并且每年会面交换意见，就是这样。两三星期前我也和来自协会的一些教授会面，他们向我介绍了他们的立场和见解，和如何改变他们的教学方式等等。我们能做的是，组织会员在有很好的氛围的餐厅会面，在那里交换我们关于诸如教育等方面的见解。当然，他们也会在事务所里提出问题展开讨论。

风景园林新青年：对于学生的学习和实践之间的关系你有什么看法？

Axel Klapka：学生在从学士升为硕士的同时，他们需要完成大约四到六个星期的事务所实习工作。但是我们这些专业人员并不愿意让他们在我们这里工作这四到六个星期，因为这种安排并不值得。在这么短的时间内，你确实不能真正地向他们展示他们应该如何工作，这样的实习缺乏深度。你还需要教他们如何使用CAD等计算机辅助设计程序，这并不合适，他们需要的是去实践。因为当前的大学教育并没有为学生做好实践操作的准备。那是为我们这样的事务所准备的。但是对于大学而言，他们会说我们不需要做这样的工作。大学教育意味着做研究探索，学会理解而得到思维的锻炼。我们试图在事务所和大学间找到平衡点，以使双方得益，找到对大学和专业人员都有好处的解决方案。

比如，当时我结束学习，完成了所有的考试，觉得我已有所准备但仍不是一个优秀的风景园林师，我并没有勇气说“我是个优秀的景观建筑师，雇佣我吧，给我高薪，我名符其实”。这是我刚到事务所时的状态，可以说那是仍然是一种学生的身份，做一些竞赛，同时助教工作了两年。但两年之后，我虽然没有毕业证书但立即找到了工作，同时我感到我的确达到了很好的教育程度。但是现在的学生确实没有机会。

风景园林新青年：K1事务所在中国有很高知名度，能谈谈你们的设计理念吗？

Axel Klapka：这的确不太好说，实际上我们也一直在探索。我想我们至少在寻找最简单的解决方案。同时，我们应该在设计中学会隐藏，没有高调华丽，绚丽的色彩，那不是我们的风格。我们仍然致力于为人们营造造访我们的公园时的一种情绪和心境。

我们做草图设计更多依靠的是直觉。我们并不分析空间、分析生态系统等等。譬如一个方案，它的产生没有任何的“概念”支持，它仅仅由一个形式或一种空间思想衍生出来。我们并不做分析，也不会说这些图有着什么样的数据支持。严格的说它不是我们的草图方案，而是某种程度上的绘画作品。这就是我们做草图的方式，一种直觉的反映。

我们也悉心的照料并观察这些项目，看这些项目运转情况如何，它们发挥作用的效果如何，以及我们在设计中是否有什么不妥当的地方。

值得一提的是，我们对自己的工作不高傲自大，我们想做的是设计优秀的公园，我们有自己的理念并为之奋斗不已。我们为自己设计的公园而奋斗，为营造每一个小空间而奋斗，并且始终如一。

我认为我们有高标准，就会有优秀的设计，进而就会有优秀的公园应运而生。我们所做的东西就是这些，看起来两、三个点，并不起眼，但是每个细节都需要有很高的质量，在细部的建设施工处理中，在对观景视线的引导中。我认为这是很重要的。

风景园林新青年：对于一个作品的展示你更倾向于用一套理论框架诠释它还是和大家分享实际的创作过程?

Axel Klapka：在事务所中，我是负责这部分工作的。像Catherine（编者注：Catherine Kuhn是柏林K1风景园林事务所的另一位合伙人）她做了竞赛的草图，我为此写一些文案，做一些书面的解释。所以我需要去思考和探究，当然我们也要交流。因为我们要赢得竞赛，要有我们的设计思想融入进去。我们不能简单说我们认为这样是好的就这样去做，这是不可行的。这就是我的任务，把理念加入设计当中，这也是对设计的一种反馈。但是当然，在最开始时完全是自由开放的，只是我们逐步地把我们的专业素质和想法融入进去，因为我们拥有做一个优秀的公园的能力，并不需要去思考怎样才能做一个优秀的公园。但我们需要思考怎样通过植物，光影等要素在公园里创造一种我们想创造的情绪。

风景园林新青年：你想对Youth LA的读者、中国的年轻风景园林设计师的们说点什么吗？

Axel Klapka：我希望他们能找到自己的风格。我并不确信现在这是否在中国已经出现，但是我看到在中国的城镇规划中仍然或多或少地能找到欧洲建筑师的影子,他们可能认为这是一种特别的风格，或者是新鲜而有趣的舶来品而大范围使用，我为此感到很遗憾。我的一些同事，他们认为中国有很优秀的文化元素，对年轻人来说，你可以研究我们的东西并且学习我们的东西，但是你必须最后回归到你的根上。城市依旧可以视作一个社会中的花园，是建筑中间存在的花园或者说是开放空间。所以学习我们的一些先进的设计和施工的方法，然后找到属于你们文化中的特有的元素，把传统的元素与新的元素结合起来回归到属于你们的文化中去。当然，我们也并不处处兴建历史公园。我们要做二三十年或者更多年后仍然对城市和一代又一代的人不断起到积极作用的新公园。这就是我们怎么造福人民，传承历史，为时代做设计。

采访人：郭湧，1983年3月生，清华大学建筑学院在站博士后
文本整理：王晞月，女，1992年1月生，北京林业大学园林学院在读本科生

Interview with Axel Klapka

On September 27, 2011, Youthla volunteer visited K1 Landschaftsarchitekten in Berlin and talked with Mr. Axel Klapka. As Chairman of Bund Deutscher Landschaftsarchiteckten (BDLA) in Berlin and Brandenburg, he was so kind to give us a lot of information on the organization of BDLA, the operation and education in the profession of landscape architecture in Germany and the design practice of K1. At the end of the interview, through Youthla, Mr. Klapka sent kind suggestions to young Chinese landscape architects. The year 2013 is the 100th anniversary of BDLA. At this moment, we would like to express our congratulations and tributes to BDLA by publishing this interview.

Thanks to Youthla volunteer Ms. Wang Xiyue for her great efforts to organize and translate the text from the original interview records.

Youthla：What kind of association the BDLA is, could you please give us a brief introduction?

Axel Klapka：BDLA is an organization runs without money. What we do is a kind of volunteer work. We stick together with a lot of landscape architects to organize activities. We have the headquarters for the whole Germany. The headquarters are more professional. But the membership is straight, if you want to go to the BDLA, you have to pay a lot of money, but you work as a volunteer. Next reason is not everybody works in the BDLA, not everybody is a member.

BDLA is the only organization for landscape architecture in Germany. And in Berlin and Brandenburg, we have a hundred members, which is not a lot. We wouldn’t have any strict working standard or frame. And in our organization, we try to keep the other offices with us, we work for other offices. And we form a kind of good community at BDLA; we meet frequently every four weeks. We go out for beer, like we have 2 or 3 hours meeting and we go out for tour, have a beer. And we also work on things like IBA Internationale Bauaustellung Berlin 2020 in Berlin. And we are also able to take some input in town planning politics. Sometimes face the things you are not able to do as a normal landscape architect, we need those people.

So it’s not a kind of official thing, but a flexible and communicative organization. Unlike the Architecture Kammar, that is an official thing, for the landscape architects, town planners, and the indoor architects.

Youthla：How can we get the title of“Landscape Architecture”.

Axel Klapka：If you want to have the title“Architect”or“Landscape Architect”, whatever, you have to be a member in this “Architecture Kammar”. It costs about 360 Euro a year. To apply the membership, first you have to study, a minimum of three years, which is the more than the bachelor. And you have to do at the minimum of two years practice in the office, and then Architecture Kammar gives you the opportunity to participate on the competitions. Otherwise, you are not allowed to do competitions. After that they give you a list and you have to show that you have at least experiences and drafts but also some construction works. Like one of my employees wants to be a member of the Kammar and they asked me to sign what they have done in the two years practice.

After you get the title as the landscape architect you don’t have to work under a framework of regulation, it’s a kind of self-organize. The more professional you get the more organized you are in the organization, and the more you are looking after your own quality. But there is no need to be a part of the Kammar. Like I’m not with the office of the Kammar but I’m the first member in the office, and my partner isn’t, I sign all the competitions, because she is not allowed, but she is doing well for all the competition work. So they don’t have rules for offices, and no standards for the work, they just want to see your education is good, like you have your university time, you have your practice time, and I sign as an employee for the practice time but not everybody. If they don’t have the practice time, I wouldn’t say you will be part of the Kammar.

As well you can work on your own, after finishing your university, you can start your office which is landscape architecture office, but you are not allowed to put the name “architect” in any form in your office name. You can say “green planning”. But you are not allowed to say you are a landscape architect or my office is for landscape architecture. You are just allowed with title from the Architecture Kammar. The reason is protecting the title and at least it is a normal use and kind of insurance at the minimum of education, of professional work to let people out to do landscape architecture work at the competitions or in the office.

Youthla：I know that we all work with DIN, how you think about the DIN in the field of landscape architecture?

Axel Klapka：Some of my projects come from my interest into DIN. Landscape architects are using the DIN norm now. Standards developed from the very specific thing, like for concrete, one of my favorites, and also we did a lot of research on it. But we are not scientists, we stick together with some people from industry, they do the work and they have the knowledge there, because they work for airports, for auto parks, the concrete surface, and industry hall floors. They have rules, they have DIN norms for it, but they don’t have a landscape architecture or a landscape building standard at least. This is the problem in our work, we have the norms made for the bigger things, and we have to read them, we have to understand them, and we have to picture it on our work and put out the most important things.

And at least I’m very happy to have these norms. I like this standard because they give us rules to work properly, and at least the contractor want it to be safe and want us to do the right thing, there’s no way that the pathway do not function at least, it cost our money. They would go to law and get the money back from us because of some broken things in it.

I am quite hard to it, lot of people say that the standards work against the creativity of them, which I don’t think so. Because creativity is anyway comes before, and it is also kind of technical creativity in the norms too. You are at least responsible, like me in my office for what we are doing, for what the output is. When we say we take part in this standard, the part come from my own ideas, and if I want to be safe, I will take engineer for constructions, I take them with me and they check the constructions again.

And, yet before construction is our way to work. Technical draft is necessary. It’s not just having a good idea and looking for to build it. All my staffs maintain this in Germany.

Youthla：We have such totally different education system between two countries. In Germany, do BDLA have the authority and responsibility to supervise the education in universities?

Axel Klapka：Not really. What we do in BDLA is organize with working surface, like people come together and they have a theme. One theme is education and universities, so they meet two or three times a year, they also meet for special topics or interests in the moment. To change the system, the landscape architecture and landscape planning, so the surface is engaged. We are looking after education on the whole scene of Germany here in Berlin. We just need every year, to exchange our opinions. That’s it.

I also met some professors for information from the Landscape Architecture Institute two or three weeks ago, and they brought me up to the stand how they want to change their studies. What we can do is organize a restaurant and the atmosphere, and exchange our opinions about education, like of course they have other things to ask here in the office.

Youthla：What do you think about the connection between students’ study in universities and the practice in offices?

Axel Klapka：When they change bachelor to master from normal diploma, they have to do about four to six weeks practical work experience in offices. But none of us professionals would like to keep students for just four or six weeks, it is not worth it. You can’t really show them how to work, and you have no depth at all，even you have to show student draw with CAD programs, it dose not really fit. They should do it as a practice, they should have. Current university education is not preparing students for the practice program. That’s for us, for the offices. We don’t want to do this in the universities. University education which means researches, which means working on understanding, which put right course. We try to come to the point good for the both sides, for the university and the professionals.

Like me, when I finished my studies, I had all the tests, I felt I am ready but I am not really a good landscape architect. I can’t really apply and say, “Hey I am a good landscape architect, take me and give me a lot of money”. So that’s a point when I say OK and was invited to the office, I still have type of a student, do some competitions for two years, and on the other side I worked for professor as a tutor. So after the two years, I have immediately a job without a diploma. And I felt really well-educated. But I had the opportunity, the student now they don’t really have.

Youthla：You know K1 is quite famous among Chinese young landscape architects. Do you have some special ideas or concepts or special position in your work and in your design?

Axel Klapka：It’s really hard to tell and I just want to figure it out actually. I think we look for simple solutions at least. And I think we should conceal in our work. There are no high spectacular things, yellow or red, that’s not ours. We still pretty much into the moods we want to generate for the people who visit our park.

Our draft work is more intuitive. We don’t analyze the room and the ecological system. It just comes without any ideas; it just comes out with a kind of form and a type of room thinking. But we don’t analyze, we don’t say we have a picture of a kind of data. It wasn’t our draft anyway, it’s just we have kind of painting or drawing. This is our draft work, somehow an intuitive thing.

We also look after our project too, how they work and how they function, what we did false. At least one thing is that we are not arrogant about ourselves. We want to do good parks, and we have our own opinion and we fight for this. We fight for the park and we fight for the little space, we keep working on it.

I think we have good standard, then we do good design and really we do good building. What we do is the things like here, two or three points, you wouldn’t see it probably, but every detail is really good made, in construction, in guiding on the various sights as well. That’s I think a good recommendation.

Youthla：As for showing and describing a work which is started with your intuitive feeling, will you formulate a kind of theories into it, or will you just tell a story honestly about the process of design as it was?

Axel Klapka：That is what I do in the office, like Catherine she is doing the draft work for the competition, and I do the writing work for the explanations. So I try to figure out something and then of course we exchange, because we have to win the competition, with a kind of idea into it. We can’t just say we thought it’s nice we just do it, no way. That’s what my input. That’s the feedback for you to do the plan too. But of course the first step it completely free and we step by step we put our professionalism into it, because we had the usual skills to build a good park of course. We just do anything without thinking about how we get a good park of course. Or a special mood in the park we want to generate with plant, with shade, with light whatever.

Youthla：Would you please give some words to the readers on the website of Youth LA for the young landscape architects in China?

Axel Klapka：OK. I hope they could figure out their own style. I am not sure if it really happen in the moment in China, but I still see the town planning in China is more or less from European architects. I am not sure but maybe Chinese think it is a kind of style or new and fancy things from Europe. But I think it is very sad. A few colleagues they think there are good many things in China. For the young people, look at us and learn from us and then go back to your roots. It is still a garden, having a park or just open space around the living buildings. It’s still kind of garden for society. So learn from us of the designing and the construction which is still one of the best things, and go back to your roots and do your own things in China with your own culture and of course mixed up with the new things. We don’t do the historical park everywhere. We do new parks we think they are good for the next 20 to 30 years or more happens after us to generation, that’s all the point of you to do good for the people, and design which suits in our time, but comes from your own culture.

Interview by Yong GUO, born in March, 1983, Post doctor of School of Architecture, Tsinghua University
Text by XiYue WANG, born in January, 1992, under graduate student in Landscape Architecture School, Beijing Forestry University